BBC filming in Holland / International coverage about the Netherlands

Hi!
Can you help the BBC?

We are making a documentary about immigration in Holland and we would like to have the participation of some young Dutch people who feel unhappy with the large amounts of immigrants in the country. We would like to meet them when we come to film in Holland at beginning of July. We are also looking for kids that are into Lonsdale clothes!

Can you help??

Thanks.

Apparently, we've switched topics in this thread somewhere, so I'll make it a combi-thread - DSW

The fire was in November last year on a Islamic school!



'Theo R.I.P.' and 'White Power' where found on the side of the Badir Islamic school.

Uitspraak van DanielV op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 13:45:

Woo, maybe you think so.

After Pim, nobody expected it to happen again, but it did.
And I think the 'Hofstad-Groep' is determind to finish what they started.They are very dangerous!

Uitspraak van KellyLynn op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 13:48:

Yes, there were a few stories on the news, but they focused on him being related to Vincent Van Gogh rather than on the real reasons he was murdered.

Americans are so weird
When a boob pops out of a dress, it's the biggest news ever, but when there is a political murder they focus on the victims ancestors.

Uitspraak van Shanna op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 13:45:

It started with a school, the day after Theo van Gogh was killed.After that there where several incidents.

And because Pim Fortuyn was killed by a Dutch man and Theo van Gogh was killed very brutaly by a muslim. It was very shocking for the nation...the way he was killed I mean.

Hi,
I opened another forum by mistake! So is anyone interested in voicing their opinion on immigration issues in Holland for our BBC documentary? We are filming in Holland in July. Thanks for your help.

Uitspraak van Marina BBC op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 13:52:

Hi,
I opened another forum by mistake! So is anyone interested in voicing their opinion on immigration issues in Holland for our BBC documentary? We are filming in Holland in July. Thanks for your help.

I have send you a message See 'Berichten'

That is just what they would like too see!!! Everybody scared in the Netherlands.. that't a dream of those people.

Uitspraak van verwijderd op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 13:51:

And because Pim Fortuyn was killed by a Dutch man and Theo van Gogh was killed very brutaly by a muslim. It was very shocking for the nation...

True!

If Pim Fortuyn was killed by a moslim than a riot was expected.

I don't believe that here in Holland things are that different than for example Germany or France.

After the murder on Theo van Gogh the nation awoke! The opinions about integration and the amount of foreigners that came in to this country were said in public. Before the murder everybody kept his or her opinion to him/herself!

Uitspraak van DanielV op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 13:45:

It's all overreaction

I don't think it is, I live in Rotterdam, which is a big city, and here you cán tell that there's a different vibe since, well, 5 years ago..

the days after Theo was murdered, you could feel the tension here, you saw people looking differently at others, especially at muslims..

still now, even as I do NOT see myself as a racist, and want to make that very clear, I do walk way around a group of guys who look foreign, than I do when I see a group of Dutch kids (this is just the outside, I'm not judging how Dutch they feel)..

and off course you can say it could have happend with a dutch guy as well, but it was a Morrocan guy who once beated me up untill I went knock out on the floor and kept kicking, just because i asked him if he couls stuff a sock in it because he was yelling through my french oral exams..
and it was an Arabic-looking guy who hit down a friend of mine and stole het bike from under her..

I'm sorry, but those are facts as well..

and I'm not a racist, and I know lot's of good guys who are arabic as well, but since I have been beaten up into the hospital I dó walk a whole way around them.. and that in my own city.. where I shouldn't bé afraid to walk..

Uitspraak van DanielV op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 13:54:

that't a dream of those people.

If it was that simple.
No, these people are a serious danger.
Remember Samir A.? Due to a mistake in our Justice Departement he was set free, and what is the first thing he does? Attack a photographer.
Their (Hofstad groep) goal is to turn The Netherlands, into a muslim state
Or anyway shut everybody down who has something negative to say about the Islam.
And that's wrong, that's not how it works here
You must be free to have an opinion, without getting in danger.

Uitspraak van Shanna op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 13:51:

Americans are so weird
When a boob pops out of a dress, it's the biggest news ever, but when there is a political murder they focus on the victims ancestors.

I know It's not that we're weird -- we just don't have as many resources that give us the international news we need to know.

Not all Americans are stupid -- remember, Bush almost lost the election .

Uitspraak van KellyLynn op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 14:01:

Not all Americans are stupid -- remember, Bush almost lost the election

Well I have an uncle who married a American woman,
She voted Kerry but he...
Well anyway, it's not only Americans that are stupid

Uitspraak van Shanna op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 13:45:

Both

hm..I know that war is something horrible,just because of different religion and I hope I will never feel it again on my skin
btw. I lived in ex Yugoslavien...

Keep on own peace,home and family...because one day u can lose all that...well,sure here we don't talk about war in Holland but to kill somebody or set on fire his home/school is shit...why?just because i will believe in one God,some person in 100 Gods and others in Allah...

RELIGION SUCKS!!!

Uitspraak van verwijderd op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 14:07:

war is something horrible,just because of different religion

Religion sucks
Without religion there would be a lot less war

Uitspraak van Shanna op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 14:00:

Remember Samir A.? Due to a mistake in our Justice Departement he was set free, and what is the first thing he does? Attack a photographer.
Their (Hofstad groep) goal is to turn The Netherlands, into a muslim state

This is one of the things that I just can't understand.
I think all of the people who were involved should be fired from their jobs. This isn't just a small mistake...this is a disaster for the Netherlands.

The crazy asshole was even threatening him with a knife.

Uitspraak van Shanna op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 14:14:

Without religion there would be a lot less war

right...but what you and me can do nothing...

Uitspraak van verwijderd op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 14:15:

right...but what you and me can do

Well I think with women on the highest positions, (president, prime minister) it would be better.
Women don't have this obsession with power that men have.

Uitspraak van Shanna op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 14:18:

Well I think with women on the highest positions, (president, prime minister) it would be better.
Women don't have this obsession with power that men have.

Please don't start this discussion and stay ontopic Shanna!

Uitspraak van da_renzo op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 14:22:

Please don't start this discussion and stay ontopic Shanna!

Well it's sort of ontopic
And it's the truth

Uitspraak van Shanna op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 14:18:

Women don't have this obsession with power that men have.

Some call it ambitious, some call it obsessed with power. Rita Verdonk for example, who is still a woman (as far as I know), is someone that is really obsessed with power and likes the attention she gets.

Uitspraak van Shanna op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 14:18:

Women don't have this obsession with power that men have.

There are defenitely more men with such obsessions then women

Uitspraak van KellyLynn op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 14:01:

Not all Americans are stupid -- remember, Bush almost lost the election

in fact, Kerry got more votes then any other pesidential candidate EVER (except Bush)... even more than the time when Reagan won every state except one!

Uitspraak van Shanna op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 14:04:

She voted Kerry but he...

SingleMom (and me and Hunter) voted for Kerry too!

Uitspraak van da_renzo op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 13:59:

After the murder on Theo van Gogh the nation awoke! The opinions about integration and the amount of foreigners that came in to this country were said in public. Before the murder everybody kept his or her opinion to him/herself!

I think that's a little bit beside the truth... it's more like some people started using it as an excuse to become openly racist. There were enough people already noticing there were problems... they just expressed themselves in a more balanced manner.

And please do not use "everybody" when it doesn't include *me*... it certainly doesn't here!

Uitspraak van Shanna op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 14:00:

Remember Samir A.? Due to a mistake in our Justice Departement he was set free

The "mistake" was that he actually didn't DO anything and that you still can't imprison ppl for making *plans*

Uitspraak van KellyLynn op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 13:48:

I get my news from NPR (National Public Radio)

me too

you can even listen to the online hourly news there on www.npr.org

and as a news site I use this one a lot: http://www.comcast.net/news/

Uitspraak van Shanna op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 14:18:

Well I think with women on the highest positions, (president, prime minister) it would be better.
Women don't have this obsession with power that men have.

Like in the novel "Dune" where the emperor had an all-female army, since women don't do rape and plunder (well, usually they don't )

Uitspraak van verwijderd op vrijdag 10 juni 2005 om 14:07:

RELIGION SUCKS!!! laatste aanpassing 10 juni 2005 14:15

i thank god for having him to believe in, i understand a lot of war is caused by religion, but to say religion sucks is a bit rich? a lot of people need that comfort in their lives. and about the whole immigration thing... (based on just what i've picked up here and there, i'm no expert on this mind you)
my opinion is that the genuine idea of helping people out was great, but holland seems to have created an enourmous respect and power struggle between beliefs and opinions.. we invited people for diner because they needed a good feed. after seeing they eat plenty of food and in a way we're not used too, now dessert is finished and there's no more hunger; we need to do the dishes and want them to fuck off. tomorrow they will be hungry again though, right?

For immigration, there is nearly always an urgent reason for them to leave their homeland. Many of the people who came to the Netherlands have done so because the life that they led in their homeland was oppressive (from either poverty or safety reasons). They didn't come because the netherlands is better than other european countries. They came because they probably already had families there who could help them make a better life then what they had at home.

I don't think that this wave of immigration is that much different from the hoardes of Irish immigrants who came to America through the 18th century. The American public had a lot of fear and hatred for the immigrants, and considered them to be of a separate "race" and to be less intelligent than themselves. The fact that many of them were Catholic or Eastern Orthodox worried the mostly Protestant population that they would taint our beliefs.

They also had the same arguments that these people were both wasting tax dollars by being on welfare and by taking jobs meant for Americans. Shop owners looking for workers would often put additions to their signs reading "no Irish need apply". his animosity led to many clashes, as portrayed in the fictionalized "Gangs of New York". Immigration eventually stalled after tougher immigration laws were passed in the 1910s and 20s.

Many of the immigrants who came here eventually found work and built successful lives here. Their children built on the success and became valuable parts of the American public. Some have even become quite well-respected, like John F Kennedy, Ronald Reagan, Henry Ford, and John Wayne. My own ancestors were part of this wave of immigration.

It might take a couple of decades to see this sort of success happen in the netherlands, but I have no doubts that your immigrants will eventually becamse as much a part of the Dutch culture as the Irish has become a part of ours.

i met an egyptian guy in a coffeeshop when i was there. he seemed cool to me and we went around having some drinks because i was bored and wanted someone to hang out with. i did notice that people were less social with me while i was walking around with him than if i had been walking around by myself. as an american i thought that was weird, but i understand how some dutch can discriminate based on those events with pim and theo. it's quite a paradox. i also agree that religion sucks and has been the reason for most of the problems which have ever happend in this world.

It's not religion that causes the problems. It's people who veil political agendas under religious doctrines who cause most of the problems.

singlemom, you got a point with the resemblence with the states, but i think youre forgetting something.

at that time, the irish were just placed as jobtakers and stuff like that. the islamic people, are being called terrorists. i think the fear of that is higher then fear because of taking jobs and suppossedly living off of the government.

and me myself, my grandparents immigrated to the netherlands when they were living in fear in their own country. (surinam, the december murders) so they moved over here. and im not a racist, but as earlier said:



ive been confronted with the same problem, accept the opposit of it. i couldnt see one of my favorite djs because a group of skin headed people with lonsdale jackets were staring at me as if i was some sort of garbage. i didnt touch them, did noting, didnt even looked at them, but they still kicked me...it wasnt hard but, when you have alot of those people standing around you, looking at you as if they wanna kill you, well, you understand that your opinion will change about these kind of people.

and dont get me wrong. i know good guys who wear the brand, but you are more careful with how you walk across the streets...

Religion isn't the problem, muslim inmigration is the problem when a group of muslims imigrants killed hundreds of people in Madrid for their religion... this is the problem they want to impose their culture and religion to us, they come here and think that they are the best we have to respect them but they don't respect us and our culture this is te problem, and in my country Spain is worst we have a lot of moroccian and a lot of Ecuatorian and people from Santo Domingo that made gangs in our city and steal, sell druggs and murder people like the USA gangs... THIS IS A SHAME 20 years ago this things didn't happen!!!!!

These people don't come to your countries to cause trouble. The gangs themselves are not a byproduct of immigration, but of the ostracization that they get once they come to the country.

Everyone wants to have a place to belong. These gangs that have started feed on that. They take angry young people and make them feel important and wanted. The concept is the same way that cults get new recruits.

I do think the gangs are a valid concern, but I don't think that they're any different than, say, the Mexican or African-American gangs that plague our streets. (or any different from the Lonsdale skinheads, for that matter.)

Uitspraak van japperd op zaterdag 11 juni 2005 om 23:21:

the irish were just placed as jobtakers and stuff like that. the islamic people, are being called terrorists.

Only for the last 3½ years... before that, they were just called "job takers" and "living on welfare"

Yes, at the same time. (One wonders how that's even possible )

yeah DSW, that is true, but what im trying to say is, that people these days feel more threatened by (according to bush) these "terrorists"

no, if it's REALLY according to Bush, you should say "these TERRISS"

"the war on terrism"

but you understand what i mean dont you?

I think that the perception is that these groups can do more damage. We tend to disregard the fears of past generations, since we have learned that most of those fears are unfounded.

P.S. Thank you to everyone who has contributed open and honest opinions to this discussion. On American boards, this debate would have disintegrated into a name-calling contest, which never gets anything solved.

and of course we have the media that blows everything up...



well doesnt that just show the true intelligence of most americans...

do you also notice in your surroundings that people react to these things like this? that they react impulsive instead of using their heads...

Yes, I do, actually. I just had a discussion in a chat room a few days ago with a backwoods sort of man who insisted that the Mexicans coming across our borders were ruining our country. He used a lot of the same complaints that have been used about every immigrant population in the past (using welfare, taking jobs, not learning the language, causing crime/drugs/gangs/violence,etc.)

I cited studies that show that most of the Mexican population that stay here will learn English within five years, and that most of the immigrants who come here will take the jobs that Americans won't take, and that it's impossible to get onto welfare if you don't even have a social security number and haven't established yourself as a legal resident of this country.

He had no studies to back up his fears, but still insisted on telling me that I needed facts to back up my case the next time I tried to disagree with him.

Of course, in real life, I can't carry journals full of studies with me, but I still get confronted with the same people who refuse to believe anything other than what they feel.

As with your country, only around 10 to 15 percent of the population is that radical. There is a larger group of people who are simply apathetic to anything else but what happens in their own lives. Some voted for Kerry, some voted for Bush...but most of them didn't vote at all.

Maybe we should exchange immigrants? you know, we get the Mexicans and you get the Moroccans?

I would bet that moroccan immigrants would have an even harder time here than they do there, with our Homeland security, and all. (*sigh*)

oh well, just give us the Mexicans then

then the ppl in Holland would have something new to gripe about (which would enable the Moroccans to put things in order outside the public spotlight) and the US could see how well they're doing without the Mexicans

The mexican's aren't muslims and they have a similar culture than the USA people and USA is a country founded and developed by the inmigration because the native people are the indians, if you don't believe me come to Spain and take a ride in the cities of Vic, Terrasa, El Ejido or some places in Barcelona and you will see how adapted are the Moroccians, pakistanis or the Ecuatorians, COlombians, center amercia people and blacks. For example the Argentinian and Uruguay inmigrants are well adapted to our society and they are good inmigrants that work and adapt theirselves to our society but the others noooo, it's very sad that you can't walk for some streets of your city because some inmigrant will rob or attack you...And the same with gipsys I think that in Spain maybe only a 1% of the gipsys have a job or a house and this is true they only sell drugs and live in rouloutes appart that they have a very different culture,...

problem here in holland is, that people believe what they see. and you know what they see? they see people on the news, with an morrocian past, getting busted for crimes and everything. they see morrocian people on the streets "destroying" society.

what they dont see, are the hard working morrocians who work all day long, and in the evening, they're to exhausted to go out on the streets and "destroy" the society.

so, what the dutch see are the people who dont have things to do all day long. but hey, i know just as much dutch people doing the same...

In my work we are 8 spanish and 3 moroccians and 1 uruguaian, and the moroccians work a lot of hours buy I asked questions to them and they are totlly fanatics of islam or say to me that they need 2 majors for our cities 1 for the moroccians and another for the spanish and stupid and fanatic thigns like that.. and they all have at least 30-40 years and have child and work a lot of hours...

I don't know if this has been posted before, but I do think that it's kind of sad that you're just out for only 1 side of the story.
Clearly you're only looking for people who want to voice their concerns about immigrants, and people wearing Lonsdale clothes (whom in a weird way have been linked by the media to having extremist views about 'foreigners'). Are you just out to create an image about the Netherlands of being an intolerant nation?

Uitspraak van verwijderd op zaterdag 11 juni 2005 om 19:15:

i thank god for having him to believe in, i understand a lot of war is caused by religion, but to say religion sucks is a bit rich? a lot of people need that comfort in their lives. and about the whole immigration thing... (based on just what i've picked up here and there, i'm no expert on this mind you)
my opinion is that the genuine idea of helping people out was great, but holland seems to have created an enourmous respect and power struggle between beliefs and opinions.. we invited people for diner because they needed a good feed. after seeing they eat plenty of food and in a way we're not used too, now dessert is finished and there's no more hunger; we need to do the dishes and want them to fuck off. tomorrow they will be hungry again though, right?

don't know...I just don't want anymore war in my life because of different religion...I hate politicks!!!!My real religion is music

can you also make me famous Marina of the BBC?